Tuesday, April 20, 2010

Why Pro-lifers are Pro-choice

Why do some people insist on calling people of the pro-life persuasion--anti-choice? This is just plain silly.

In this press release from the Abortion Rights Coalition, Joyce Arthur and friends call us anti-choice. Eleven times.

But we are very pro-choice, don't you know?

The problem is, abortion advocates have this funny habit of not being able to make a complete sentence when they ask a question, as in: "Don't you support a woman's right to choose?"

To which I must logically answer, well, what is she choosing?

This question can't logically be answered because it isn't a sentence. It only has a subject and a verb but no object. I do support a woman's right to choose many things—like dying her hair purple, like choosing to be a belly dancer, like taking a trip to Tanzania. I think I might even support a woman's right to choose whether or not to inject the deadly botulism organism into her face. As long as she doesn't hurt anyone else, I support all her choices.

I am pro-choice.

But it seems when people talk about a woman's right to choose, they're not talking about these things. What they're talking about—and they assume that by not finishing the sentence we won't notice—what they're talking about is a “woman's right to choose to kill her unborn child”.

So no, I don't support that choice. Why? Because that's the willful destruction of a defenceless human being.

Then the two-thirds-of-a-sentence advocates will say, but it's not a human being. Well then, what is it? It's not a dog or a pig or a goat. What a woman's fetus is, is a member of the species homo sapien (as are you and I) before exiting its mother's womb. Her fetus is human and it is a being. Some people have a problem with this concept. Why, I don't know. It's not that difficult.

Then they'll say, well the mother is more important than her unborn baby. Another disingenuous statement.

Am I more important than you? No. Are you more important than an old man who wanders around with dementia who can't take care of himself, can't feed himself, and pees in his pants? No.

So then they'll say, it's part of her body and she can do what she wants with her own body. Wait a minute. There's one more ground rule we must establish before we continue this conversation.

We aren't allowed to lie.

You can't say the unborn child is part of her body because it isn't. It is a separate being.

When you ask yourself these questions, and when you're honest with yourself when you answer them, the answers are really quite simple. Your heart will give you the answer. All you need to do is, listen to your conscience and vocalize what it tells you.

So let's finish the sentence, and then we can answer the question.

We aren't anti-choice. We are pro-choice.


  1. You are right on Pat! I too believe in choice. I call it free will. Some choices, however, are immoral, like a man’s choice to rape a woman, or a parent’s choice to sexually abuse a child, or a thief’s choice to rob a bank. So, I’m "anti-choice" on rape, sexual abuse and bank robbery. How come no one complains about that? Yes let us always finish the sentence when we talk about choice.

  2. Actually, "Do you support a woman's right to choose" is a complete sentence just as, for example, "Do you support a woman's right to sing" is a complete sentence. The object is not necessary for completeness. Nor is necessary for understanding, given this common usage.

    And what one is supporting, is the woman's right to choose what to do when faced with a pregnancy. Give birth? Raise the child? Put up for adoption? Have an abortion?

    So no, you are definitely not pro-choice.

  3. I am pro-choice, but choice does not come without responsibility. I do not support a person's choice to murder someone for the same reason I do not support someone's choice to abort an unborn child. In both cases the choice is immoral therefore I do not support those choices. I do support a person's choice of singing. Singing is not an immoral choice.

  4. Well then, it would probably be good for you to know that when someone says they are "pro-choice" people normally take that to mean that they support a woman's right to choose birth or abortion when faced with a pregnancy of her own. I am surprised you are not aware of this.

    If your personal belief is that abortion is immoral AND you want to take away others' right to choose abortion based on your belief, then the correct terminology for you to use when referring to yourself is "pro-life".

    I know better than to call myself "pro-life" simply because I love life and have joyously given birth myself. I know that saying I am pro-life would make people erroneously think that I want to take away a woman's right to choose birth or abortion.

  5. I am quite aware of what "pro-choice" means and what "pro-life" means. Perhaps you hadn't noticed that this is a "pro-life" blog.

    Saying a woman has a right to abortion is the same as saying a woman has a right to--as another example--murder. In that case, I don't support a woman's "right" to murder either. I am therefore pro-life.

  6. "Saying a woman has a right to abortion is the same as saying a woman has a right to--as another example--murder."

    Well, I suppose in your mind it is the same. But that not true for most people. If it were, women would not have the right to choose abortion.

    Oh, I noticed that this is a pro-life blog. I have no doubt that you know what the term "pro-life" means. You seemed confused, however, about what pro-choice means. Hope I have helped clarify that for you. You wouldn't want to misuse it and have people erroneously think you support a women's right to choose abortion.... because they would you know. That's what it normally means means when you say "pro-choce" without expanding on the choice.

  7. Not confused in the least. I refer you to the title of the entry to which you commented on in the first place. I think it explains it fairly well why I believe "Why pro-lifers are pro-choice"

  8. Your title is "Why Pro-lifers are Pro-Choice"
    That explains nothing.

    Then you go on to erroneously claim that "Don't you support the right to choose?" cannot be answered because it lacks an object and is therefore not even a sentence. Wrong. When someone says they are Pro-choice it is commonly known this means that they support a women's right to choose an abortion or birth. So you still have not explained why Pro-lifers are Pro-choice.

    If you try to HONESTLY argue that supporting a women's right to choose to dye her hair, get Botox or go to Africa means that you are Pro-choice. then you are indeed confused. That is not what people will think you might mean when you claim to be Pro-Choice, just as surely as I know people won't think I mean that I gave birth if I were to call myself Pro-life.

  9. The pro abortion advocates have taken the word choice and twisted it to suit themselves. They just don't get it.

  10. Maureen, there has been no "twisting". People who are Pro-choice are exactly that: they are pro-abortion, pro-adoption, pro-parent-raising- the-child..... they are all for women have choices.

    It could be argued that it is you who just doesn't get it. And neither does Patricia.

  11. I agree that is not what people will think of when they think of the word “pro-choice”. That is because the pro-abortions have perverted the word "pro-choice" to advance their cause and many people have fallen for it. Many have been lulled into an acceptance of a pretty horrific reality--the killing of our not-yet-born human offspring-- through the euphemistic labelling of that reality as "choice."
    Literally, “pro-choice” means to be supportive of choice. But not all choices are morally equivalent. Suppose a man doesn't have enough money to buy a car; he can choose to ask the bank for a loan or to ask a rich uncle to buy him a car or to save up enough money until he can afford to buy a car outright or to steal money to buy a car. Just because I don't support the stealing choice does not mean I don't support choice. I support choice, generally. Who wouldn't?  And I support many particular choices. But I do not support all possible choices available to a person who is faced with making a decision about something. So in order to understand what particular choice one is talking about in a given situation, we need to finish the sentence. As in: "I support a man's choice to ask his rich uncle to buy him a car; I do not support a man's choice to steal money to buy a car."

    And I support a woman's right to choose, generally. Who wouldn't? And I support particular choices when she is faced with a pregnancy, like the choice to give birth and raise her child or the choice to place her child for adoption. I do not support the particular choice (whether hers or someone else's) to end the life of her child through abortion.
    That is how I can be both pro-life AND pro-choice. And when I finish the sentence "I support the right to choose x, y, or z....", I make it clear what choices in particular I am talking about.

  12. "Literally, “pro-choice” means to be supportive of choice. But not all choices are morally equivalent"

    To be Pro-choice means that you are supportive of all choices. To be pro-choice means that you do not pass moral judgement on the woman's decision. To be Pro-choice means that the woman has a right to choose any of the options available to her, including abortion.

    So no, you still have not made a case for calling yourself Pro-choice Patricia. It would be wrong just as it would be wrong for me to call myslef Pro-life simply because I love life and joyously gave birth twice.

  13. Ginny says that "To be Pro-choice means that you are supportive of all choices" that are "available to her" (I assume by "available" she means legal.) To Ginny, it doesn't matter whether that choice is moral/ethical. So that's fine (although it's unclear if Ginny's definition applies only to the abortion issue or to other issues as well, like Patricia's example of stealing money to buy a car.)

    And so given Ginny's definition, Patricia is not "pro-choice" when it comes to abortion. But given Patricia's definition of "pro-choice" (i.e., that she supports many choices, but not ones she deems to be unethical, whether we are talking about abortion or some other issue), then Patricia IS "pro-choice."

    Nothing earth-shattering here. Whenever the same word is used by two different people to mean two different things, then of course there will be confusion. The important thing is to recognize that we are using two different definitions and come to some agreement on terms so we can communicate effectively.

    To that end, I would suggest instead of using the word "choice" we use the word "abortion" when we discuss the abortion issue, because then we make it abundantly clear exactly what choice we are talking about.

    So those who support abortion would be "pro-abortion" (one of the terms Ginny already uses), and those who oppose it would be "anti-abortion." Or we can continue to use the word "choice" but specify what choice we are talking about, as in "I am pro-abortion-choice." Another alternative is to use the terms "abortion proponents (or supporters)" and "abortion opponents." Again, very clear what we are talking about. Another alternative: anti-fetal-rights and pro-fetal-rights.

    Otherwise, people on each side of the abortion debate can be considered "pro-choice" (given the two different definitions of the term), and as this whole discussion has shown, that can be very confusing and can hinder effective communication.

  14. "Whenever the same word is used by two different people to mean two different things, then of course there will be confusion. The important thing is to recognize that we are using two different definitions and come to some agreement on terms so we can communicate effectively."

    Sorry Jeannie, but your lengthy argument falls to pieces here. Truth is, the words do NOT mean different things to different people. There is agreement on the terms. Whether one is pro-life or pro-choice, they know what it means to be pro-choice. They know it means to support all of the choices available to pregnant women, as I have already explained (and yes, it IS clear that I am talking about choices with respect to pregnancy).

  15. I agree with Ginny that the pro-abortions like to be known as "pro-choice". My original post above was taking issue with how the extreme pro-abortions, like Joyce Arthur, insist on calling pro-lifers, anti-choice, which of course, we are not. We are anti-abortion-choice and we are pro-moral-choice. In other words we are pro-choice as long as the choice is a good and non-harmful choice to anyone. Just because the pro-abortions have co-opted the term "pro-choice" doesn't mean it belongs to them. They do not have a copyright on the label. Just because some people may think they do and say they do, does not make it a fact. In fact if you Google the word you'll discover many others who call themselves "pro-choice", including smoking advocates and people who sell boots for horses, among others. The word definitely does mean different things to different people Ginny, just like Jeannie stated. Pro-lifers are pro-choice.

  16. When someone says they ar pro-choice it definitely means that they support a women's right to choose keeping the baby, puttting up for adoption or having an abortion. As much as you try to weasel your way out Pat, you know this is true. Otherwise you would feel comfortable telling people you were pro-choice and leaving it at that. And you're not.

    "Just because the pro-abortions have co-opted the term "pro-choice" mean it belongs to them. They do not have a copyright on the label. Just because some people may think they do and say they do, does not make it a fact.".

    Well, with that argument I could go ahead and say I am prolife beacuse I do love life and I gave birth twice. The fact that I support a women's right to choose abortion is irrelevant. How do you like that Pat?

    Truth is, more people understand what it means to be prochoice than to be prolife. This is clear when you look at the recent gallup poll results on abortion in the states.

  17. Ginny you can call yourself "pro-life", it doesn't matter to me. Call yourself whatever you like. Why would I stop you from calling yourself that? It is a free country. I don't have a copyright on that label just like you don't (as I already pointed out) on "pro-choice.

  18. Ginny, I may have missed something but I have never met anyone who claims to be 'pro-choice' support anything other than abortion for an unwanated pregnacny. Just visit an abortion facility and witness what goes on between someone trying to help a woman chose to give her baby life and someone who is pro-choice. The later will consistently encourage the pregnant women to go ahead with the abortion while the former will freely offer suggestions on chosing life for the baby. NO, in my years of experience at abortion mills, pro-choice means pro-abotion and abortion means:taking the life of a defenseless, innocent baby by brutally tearing their little body apart, sucking the parts into a machine and disposing the parts into the garbage; this is what pro-choice really means.

  19. Ginny, the degradation of the nature of your comments have continued to the point where it is quite apparent that you have little interest in having an intelligent dialogue on pro-life issues with me at this point. Comments that are relevant to a particular post, that further the conversation at hand, that add meaningful insight, that offer pertinent facts, will be posted. I'm sure as a very intelligent human being, you comprehend what I am saying and I'm not quite sure why I need to say it at all. I will delete any additional comments such as your last two (unpublished) comments that offer nothing new and whose sole purpose is to antagonize. Antagonizing the blog owner is not recommended since as you know, a blog is not a democracy, and this results in your comments being more hastliy deleted. Your choice.

  20. "Ginny, I may have missed something but I have never met anyone who claims to be 'pro-choice' support anything other than abortion for an unwanated pregnacny."

    And you are basing this on the reaction you get to pro-lifers attempting to dissuade women from entering an abortion clinic? Surely you must understand that at that point they have made have thought it through and made their choice. I have seen pro-lifers outside the clinic in our small city and if I were one of those women going in for an abortion or their friend, partner or family member accompanying them, I would not take kindly to your intrusion either.

    If you have never met anyone who is pro-choice and supports all of the choices, and would encourage others to choose what is best for them, then you do not know many prochoicers.

  21. Thanks for your comment Ginny. I understand that for many women the decision to abort their unborn baby is a difficult one. After speaking with many post abortion women I learned they feel that if they had received truthful information about what an abortion really does they say they would never have gone through with taking the life of their child. Many say the staff at the place where they went for the abortion were friendly at frist and told them that they were making the right decision; but it seems that as soon as the procedure was over the same people were uncaring. One lady told me she complained of being cold afterwards and the staff actually told her to shut up, she was making others feel uncomfortable. It was at this point that this woman said she knew it was the biggest mistake of her life and that she wished she could just go to sleep and never ever wake up. She went on to a life of alcholism and she used a lot of illegal and prescription drugs in an attempt to dull her feelings. None of these things worked. What did help her was a group called Rachels Vineyard or something like this. They helped her to heal the pain of her abortion. You see Ginny, this is a big problem with the abortion industry:pregnant women who face an unplanned pregnacy seem to be treated as objects who need a fix to a problem and once the fix is over, the people who work there move on to the next problem...taking the life of another baby and harming the life of the mother. One person who worked at a such a place told me that abortion was her bread and butter and when business was slow, her income suffered. She really liked the pro-choice people because they put money in her pocket. When I suggested that these women suffered much after the abortion she told me to 'f' off and get a life. Now Ginny, tell me that abortion is a good thing, that taking the life of an innocent child is a good choice. Thanks for your reply.

  22. For the record, by definition a clinic is a place where living creatures go with the expectation of receiving help to cope with, to be cured from illness or disease or to promote their health. Pregnancy is neither an illness nor a disease, it is a normal condition! The only reason therefore for a pregnant women go to a clinic would be to ensure her health and the health of her child.
    In contrast to the abnormal caused by disease and illness and the expected outcome of preserving life and promoting health at clinics, let's understand that abortion destroys what is normal and the expected outcome at abortuaries is death. No argument so far, right. Let us then stop misuing the term 'clinic' when describing abortuaries. Final: clinics intentionally preserve and promote life; abortuaries intentionally destroy life.

  23. Jennifer, the definition for clinic fairly broad but essentially is a small private or public medical facility for outpatient care. While you may prefer to call an abortion clinic something else, it is correct to use the term abortion clinic.

    Certainly there are women who later regret their abortion. And there are women who suffer from substance abuse and depression after having an abortion. Whether the abortion is wholely or partly responsible for their problems is not always known. Many women who have had troubled backgrounds end up "finding Jesus" and deeply regret their abortions. Obviously their recall of the experience will be negative and they will want to do all they can to stop other women from
    having an abortion.

    At the same time, there are many many women that do not regret their abortions. These are the ones you don't hear from.